I totally get the concern and this is something which 100% should be talked about, and warned about. Yet my own 'non-dual' experience, detailed here: https://guyjames.com/2014/08/24/eczema-as-koan-part-3-the-way-out/ left me feeling distinctly 'upgraded' mentally, full of love for life and wanting to go out and help others (and yes, I still recognised the existence of 'others'). After that, reading and listening to these teachers, I thought, 'well, what happened to me then? did I not get the full dose or something?' Maybe I didn't, and that may be lucky. But it felt plenty powerful enough to me, and still does.
It's fascinating, since I felt only what you describe for the first couple of years, and then something shifted, where there was such a pervasive absence of self and referential thought , and even such a deep sense of serenity and "there's nothing left to do" sense, that I would start blanking out for example in conversations, like the response mechanism at times almost just seemed fried, or stunted. Some of it had to do with a complete sense of contentment that led to a lack of motivation to actually even let's say, add anything to silence, for example, speak. But also there'd been such a massive blow-out of my narrative sense of self, with all of my history, that I'd just lose access to it completely sometimes when it was necessary to re-call it/call it up, and sometimes it felt like I had no history, and I really cherished that much of the time because everything seemed so fresh and unconditioned, and a relief from my burdens accumulated historically. In some ways it was like stepping into the experience of having amnesia! Like I might have short-term memory recall but less access to long term memories. But then other times it was short-term too. So I always point back to this double-edged sword dynamic. And certainly, the more extreme one goes with these paths, and I think the further one becomes dis-connected from their personal history, the more extreme they are likely to see functional impairment. And I would say if you didn't have any of those side effects then definitely it's A GOOD THING, and perhaps you didn't go to a far extreme, which I'd also say thank goodness to if that's the case!
I'll add to this blog post - this is from Jeffrey Martin's research - who created the Finder's Course, outlining what he determined as stages along a spectrum leading up to "Location 4" where he suggests people experienced the highest level of subjective wellbeing - again revealing the double-edged sword dynamic
"Location 4 and Beyond
Another major transition occurred at Location 4, which includes both the transitional
location and those beyond it where the experience it ushers in continues to deepen. All remaining vestiges of self-related thoughts are gone by this point, as are experiences of emotion. Feelings of deep interconnectedness and union with God, an all pervasive consciousness, and so forth also disappeared. These participants reported having no sense of agency or any ability to make a decision. It felt as if life was simply unfolding and they were watching the process happen. Severe memory deficits were common in these participants, including the inability to recall scheduled events that were not regular and ongoing. Participants who progressed to this location from one or more previous ones reported the highest level of well-being. Often this amazed them
as they did not imagine anything could have been better than Location 3."
That sounds more like mental illness than anything else. I suppose maybe the feeling is so wonderful that people are willing to give up that much, but how can one help others without a memory? Part of being happy, for me, is to achieve goals I've set myself. Obviously contentment is great but if we're all just watching things unfold without any doer, how does anything get done? It doesn't sound like a definition of 'well being' I would recognise.
completely agree!! being high on heroine I'm sure is also described as the best possible feeling ever, doesn't make it any less unhealthy. It's just sad that these kinds of states are being glorified today
So the question is, what is enlightenment or self-realisation if we can produce the same effects with drugs? Obviously I think it's something more than just brain chemistry.
interesting! I suppose “one way of perceiving reality” that has some very profound effects would be an anemic answer? I struggle with the question and the answer also because at this point I realize that so many people disagree about what "enlightenment" and "self-realization" even is, that there's hardly a consensus to even know what we're talking about! I'm having deja vu here as I write that I feel there's a strong element of attention/highly tuned, often trained attention to one dimension of reality or stratum of our present experience to the exclusion of others that often results in the massive shifts that tend to lead people, particularly when following enlightenment frameworks, and their 'realziation' pointers, that we have discovered that what we really are for example is something called "pure awareness" or "pure consciousness" or the "absolute" and nothing else...or at least that all else is illusion . That's just one such realization tied to enlightenment paradigms, there are others too of course
Since we spoke I had another non-dual 'immersion', let's say, and felt more of the habitual self dissolve, to the point where I felt very empty and there weren't many thoughts. But then I had a challenging personal situation and the full self came back in response to dealing with that. I'm tempted to say that a lot of the apparent cognitive damage might be down to the speed and intensity of the awakening experience. If it happens very gradually, maybe the system gets better at dealing with it, and there's more of a graceful dance between self and non-self. Also if one is trying to 'get there ASAP' because of the promises made by non-dual teachers, maybe that increases the likelihood of burning out our cognition. Because I know that some very unpleasant states are possible, maybe I'm allowing it to unfold more naturally and the system as a whole is dealing with it in a healthier way. Ultimately though, I don't know. Maybe tomorrow I'll fall into a zombie-like trance and all the teachers will congratulate me. 😉
I'm definitely comfortable saying that it's the "direct paths" that push an instant radical self-dissolution intended to be a rapid and permanent deconstruction of your entire reality and self-structure, are the most risky of what is being offered in the Western non-duality world today. Just as they were the most risky traditionally - something I keep repeating like a broken record, sorry!!! This is why I focus in on neo-advaita and youtube "non-duality" since that's what they push for. Hopefully you don't zombify over-night, and I doubt it. It sounds like you have a balance going on that isn't impeding your healthy functioning, thank god!
From an IFS (Internal Family Systems) perspective, it sounds like these methods of inner work are strengthening dissociative parts like managers and firefighters who shut consciousness down / blunt it / numb it instead of developing true Self energy.
As someone who has ferociously practiced IFS for over 22 years and over 7000 hours, I have never encountered this as an outcome of my practice. I am more grounded, more clear, and more deeply embedded in reality the more I practice.
My memory is much better, and much more rehabilitated from the amnesia I previously experienced.
Hello! I've done IFS a bit too and really liked it. I wouldn't think of IFS as a self-negating non-duality path to permanently de-realizing one's self of self though? That's what the post is specifically about!!
I've done IFS and I'd say that this awakening process happens at a deeper level than that. There is nobody who seems to 'own' the parts, although they still appear in consciousness, and still need to be unburdened, understood, and integrated. It's just that there is a different core perspective on the whole thing. Very difficult to put into words because it's pre-verbal, from the level of a more fundamental awareness.
I totally get the concern and this is something which 100% should be talked about, and warned about. Yet my own 'non-dual' experience, detailed here: https://guyjames.com/2014/08/24/eczema-as-koan-part-3-the-way-out/ left me feeling distinctly 'upgraded' mentally, full of love for life and wanting to go out and help others (and yes, I still recognised the existence of 'others'). After that, reading and listening to these teachers, I thought, 'well, what happened to me then? did I not get the full dose or something?' Maybe I didn't, and that may be lucky. But it felt plenty powerful enough to me, and still does.
It's fascinating, since I felt only what you describe for the first couple of years, and then something shifted, where there was such a pervasive absence of self and referential thought , and even such a deep sense of serenity and "there's nothing left to do" sense, that I would start blanking out for example in conversations, like the response mechanism at times almost just seemed fried, or stunted. Some of it had to do with a complete sense of contentment that led to a lack of motivation to actually even let's say, add anything to silence, for example, speak. But also there'd been such a massive blow-out of my narrative sense of self, with all of my history, that I'd just lose access to it completely sometimes when it was necessary to re-call it/call it up, and sometimes it felt like I had no history, and I really cherished that much of the time because everything seemed so fresh and unconditioned, and a relief from my burdens accumulated historically. In some ways it was like stepping into the experience of having amnesia! Like I might have short-term memory recall but less access to long term memories. But then other times it was short-term too. So I always point back to this double-edged sword dynamic. And certainly, the more extreme one goes with these paths, and I think the further one becomes dis-connected from their personal history, the more extreme they are likely to see functional impairment. And I would say if you didn't have any of those side effects then definitely it's A GOOD THING, and perhaps you didn't go to a far extreme, which I'd also say thank goodness to if that's the case!
I'll add to this blog post - this is from Jeffrey Martin's research - who created the Finder's Course, outlining what he determined as stages along a spectrum leading up to "Location 4" where he suggests people experienced the highest level of subjective wellbeing - again revealing the double-edged sword dynamic
"Location 4 and Beyond
Another major transition occurred at Location 4, which includes both the transitional
location and those beyond it where the experience it ushers in continues to deepen. All remaining vestiges of self-related thoughts are gone by this point, as are experiences of emotion. Feelings of deep interconnectedness and union with God, an all pervasive consciousness, and so forth also disappeared. These participants reported having no sense of agency or any ability to make a decision. It felt as if life was simply unfolding and they were watching the process happen. Severe memory deficits were common in these participants, including the inability to recall scheduled events that were not regular and ongoing. Participants who progressed to this location from one or more previous ones reported the highest level of well-being. Often this amazed them
as they did not imagine anything could have been better than Location 3."
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/6001964
That sounds more like mental illness than anything else. I suppose maybe the feeling is so wonderful that people are willing to give up that much, but how can one help others without a memory? Part of being happy, for me, is to achieve goals I've set myself. Obviously contentment is great but if we're all just watching things unfold without any doer, how does anything get done? It doesn't sound like a definition of 'well being' I would recognise.
completely agree!! being high on heroine I'm sure is also described as the best possible feeling ever, doesn't make it any less unhealthy. It's just sad that these kinds of states are being glorified today
Yes, and as this article points out, Buddhist desirelessness can be replicated immediately with Ozempic: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2024/09/ozempic-glp1-desire-buddhism/680088/
So the question is, what is enlightenment or self-realisation if we can produce the same effects with drugs? Obviously I think it's something more than just brain chemistry.
interesting! I suppose “one way of perceiving reality” that has some very profound effects would be an anemic answer? I struggle with the question and the answer also because at this point I realize that so many people disagree about what "enlightenment" and "self-realization" even is, that there's hardly a consensus to even know what we're talking about! I'm having deja vu here as I write that I feel there's a strong element of attention/highly tuned, often trained attention to one dimension of reality or stratum of our present experience to the exclusion of others that often results in the massive shifts that tend to lead people, particularly when following enlightenment frameworks, and their 'realziation' pointers, that we have discovered that what we really are for example is something called "pure awareness" or "pure consciousness" or the "absolute" and nothing else...or at least that all else is illusion . That's just one such realization tied to enlightenment paradigms, there are others too of course
Since we spoke I had another non-dual 'immersion', let's say, and felt more of the habitual self dissolve, to the point where I felt very empty and there weren't many thoughts. But then I had a challenging personal situation and the full self came back in response to dealing with that. I'm tempted to say that a lot of the apparent cognitive damage might be down to the speed and intensity of the awakening experience. If it happens very gradually, maybe the system gets better at dealing with it, and there's more of a graceful dance between self and non-self. Also if one is trying to 'get there ASAP' because of the promises made by non-dual teachers, maybe that increases the likelihood of burning out our cognition. Because I know that some very unpleasant states are possible, maybe I'm allowing it to unfold more naturally and the system as a whole is dealing with it in a healthier way. Ultimately though, I don't know. Maybe tomorrow I'll fall into a zombie-like trance and all the teachers will congratulate me. 😉
I'm definitely comfortable saying that it's the "direct paths" that push an instant radical self-dissolution intended to be a rapid and permanent deconstruction of your entire reality and self-structure, are the most risky of what is being offered in the Western non-duality world today. Just as they were the most risky traditionally - something I keep repeating like a broken record, sorry!!! This is why I focus in on neo-advaita and youtube "non-duality" since that's what they push for. Hopefully you don't zombify over-night, and I doubt it. It sounds like you have a balance going on that isn't impeding your healthy functioning, thank god!
From an IFS (Internal Family Systems) perspective, it sounds like these methods of inner work are strengthening dissociative parts like managers and firefighters who shut consciousness down / blunt it / numb it instead of developing true Self energy.
As someone who has ferociously practiced IFS for over 22 years and over 7000 hours, I have never encountered this as an outcome of my practice. I am more grounded, more clear, and more deeply embedded in reality the more I practice.
My memory is much better, and much more rehabilitated from the amnesia I previously experienced.
Hello! I've done IFS a bit too and really liked it. I wouldn't think of IFS as a self-negating non-duality path to permanently de-realizing one's self of self though? That's what the post is specifically about!!
If done WRONG, I think any inner work technique can lead to trouble.
I agree, IFS is not inherently a self-negating non-duality path.
But if someone mistakes their managers for their Self, it can be.
I've done IFS and I'd say that this awakening process happens at a deeper level than that. There is nobody who seems to 'own' the parts, although they still appear in consciousness, and still need to be unburdened, understood, and integrated. It's just that there is a different core perspective on the whole thing. Very difficult to put into words because it's pre-verbal, from the level of a more fundamental awareness.